2004 Serbian Interview With Igor Sucovic
Интервју са Stephen Koepfer-om (Председник Америчке Самбо Асоцијације)


Крајем 2004. године угостили смо Stephen Koepfer-a, председника америчке самбо асоцијације , уговорили смо будућу сарадњу и разменили искуства. Стева (како смо га одмах «крстили»), је одржао дводневни Combat Sambo семинар (Боевое Самбо), као и пар редовних тренинга.

Искористили смо прилику и направили овај интервју.

Игор Сучевић


I started my training in martial arts 28 years ago at the age of 8 with Shotokan. To be honest, I only stayed with it for one year or so but, it planted a seed which continued to grow through my life. After that, believe it or not, I mainly practiced yoga and meditation. Martial arts were always lurking in the back of my head though. I would read books, watch movies, etc. Always thinking…”I will get back to that one day.” I dabbled with martial arts during my early teenage years but, nothing consistent until I was 18 and started Tae Kwon Do. The regimented and formal atmosphere of the Korean Dojang was good for me at that time of my life. I was kind of a lost kid and had gotten into some stupid trouble so, the strict environment straightened me out a bit. I stayed with TKD for six years until I started to feel that I was not getting my needs met as a fighter. I started looking elsewhere and after visiting several schools and instructors, I settled on San Shou. At that time it was just what I needed. Full contact training that was completely unlike what I knew from TKD and much more practical. We could kick, punch, and throw…what could be better? We even practiced submission wrestling! At that time nobody really knew much about San Shou in the United States. It was an exciting time for San Shou and my training. I remember when our fight team used to go work out at Gleason’s gym in Brooklyn. It felt so much more authentic than TKD. No formalities, just hard training. I still train with some of those guys! At that time we fought in any event we could - regardless of the rules. We were primarily San Shou fighters but, we fought in grappling and MMA events as well. I recall my first full contact match. It was a MMA match against a guy who just got out of prison. I lost that one but, what a learning experience it was. I had him stand-up but lost on the ground via choke. In any event, after another six years, I was itching to move on again. To what, I was not sure. It was at that point, purely by chance, that I met my Combat Sambo coach, Alexander Barakov. I took a class with him and I was hooked. That was in early 1999.


Like most Americans I had never heard of Sambo until the early 1990s when Oleg Taktarov fought in the UFC. In 1998, I actually took a seminar with Oleg Taktarov and Gokor Chivichian. That was my first “hands on” experience with sambo. But, it was in early 1999 that I began to train Combat Sambo seriously. I had just moved on from training San Shou and was not looking for Sambo in particular but, when I found Alexander Barakov I knew he was the person I had to train with. A friend had told me that this Russian guy had started teaching at a local school so, I went down for a class. I was hooked after that.


Alex is an incredible and enigmatic man. Like most people he has his quirky sides but, I love him. He embodies everything a true martial artist should be…humble, calm, compassionate, intelligent, and of course, an great fighter with great character. I recall my first training session with him. I walked into the school kind of cocky and feeling pretty tough. I guess my ego was too big at the time. I remember during my first class Alex made an announcement to the group (it was a small group at that time) that I was some experienced fighter and that he and I would spar a bit in a friendly way. Well, it was after this 60 year old guy wiped the mat with me that I knew I should lose the ego and train with him. He moved with such intention and confidence! It was like being hit by a truck. Over the years Alex gave me (and all his students) so much - more than just physical training. He was a selfless person. There was a time I could not train because I may have had meningitis - which I thankfully did not. During that period of weeks, I would come to the school early and Alex and I would sit and simply work hand grabs and escapes. We would talk about politics, life, etc. Alex always reminded me that martial arts mirrored life and life mirrored martial arts. They were one and the same. Alex did not own much and was, in fact, pretty poor by US standards. But, he gave all of himself to us - like a father. He lived in a room at the back of the school. He had defected to the US ten years earlier and always preferred not to talk about his history with the KGB and Naval Spetsnaz. He felt he had built up some bad karma. Once in a while he would share a story but, I could tell there were many aspects of his past that he was not happy with and unwilling to talk about. When people would ask him about his military background he would simply say “I don’t talk about that.” Many people did not know that Alex also had a degree in philosophy, played classical guitar and was an incredible painter. He would often go off into philosophy lectures during class or bring out his latest painting to show the students. Oftentimes entering the school you were greeted with beautiful guitar music. It was an honor to train with him and is still an honor to have him as a friend. He returned to Russia in 2003 and now has a school in St. Petersburg. We still communicate regularly.


Well, sambo has a long history and several versions exist. As you may know, the Soviets did not exactly share the truth when it came to history. In fact, sometimes, truth was simply erased for various political reasons or on the whim of certain leaders. Nevertheless, there are commonly accepted histories involving the development of sambo. The two main founders are considered to be Victor Spiridonov and Vasili Oshchepkov. Each had been developing individual styles of hand to hand combat for the new Red Army and eventually their styles merged in what is now known as Sambo and it’s various versions. Spiridonov coined the acronym “SAMBO” and in 1938 the All-Union Committee of Physical Culture recognized sambo as a sport. Nevertheless, sambo was being practiced before 1938 under various names including Oshchepkov’s “freestyle-wrestling” and Spiridonov’s “Samoz”. Oshchepkov’s version of sambo was much more akin to the judo that was his foundation. He was a second degree black belt under judo founder Jigoro Kano. While Oshchepkov and his student Kharlampiev did develop a combat oriented form of sambo, today’s sport sambo is very much more akin to Oshchepkov’s sambo. Similarly, Spiridonov’s sambo - primarily combat oriented - reflected his militaristic intentions, his own physical disability, and softer movement philosophies. Generally speaking, combat sambo evolved out of Spiridonov’s work as did other arts like systema, ROSS, and Kodachnikov’s system. Today “sport sambo”, “sambo wrestling”, and “bor’ba sambo” are all synonymous terms for the sport version of sambo. Combat sambo is the most practical and inclusive version of the art. This version is sometimes referred to as “commando sambo” - particularly in Japan. The term “self defense sambo” is rarely used but, reflects the middle ground between sport and combat - a less lethal set of techniques more appropriate for police than for soldiers.


The main difference is in movement philosophy and focus on leg attacks. Let’s face it - generally speaking an arm bar is finished the same in judo, jujitsu, catch wrestling, sambo, or any other art. It is the process of getting your opponent into position for the arm bar that is unique to each art. It is all about how you control your opponent. Not how you finish the lock or submission. I would say that sambo is much more focused on the principle of “constant movement” than other arts. Alexander Barakov used to say “stillness is death!” I agree 100%. The second major difference is sambo’s use of smothering or minimizing space between you and your opponent. We call it the “no gaps principle”. For example, most sambists would not use a jujitsu knee-on-body position to control an opponent. It creates to large a gap between the two fighters - and gaps offer opportunities to escape. Space is a gift to your opponent - unless you are trying to escape an submission of course.


I will simply quote our mission statement to you. I think it sums our goals pretty well.
“The American Sambo Association is committed to becoming the premier association dedicated to the advancement of Sambo in the United States. Through classes, seminars, demonstrations, and cross-discipline affiliations, the American Sambo Association strives to introduce and educate the American public to the benefits of Sambo. Through professional memberships for Sambo schools, the American Sambo Association strives to monitor and make available Sambo training of the highest quality. The American Sambo Association supports and promotes bridge-building across martial art disciplines through affiliate memberships for schools and individuals. The American Sambo Association does not promote any particular ranking system or attempt to govern competitive Sambo in any way. Rather, the American Sambo Association endeavors to bolster networking within the Sambo Community and across martial arts disciplines. Recognizing the moral foundations of Sambo, the American Sambo Association offer its services to local and global community building and human service efforts. Most importantly, like Sambo itself, the American Sambo Association promises to grow and evolve with the needs of its members and students.”


The main differences between the “freestyle sambo” we developed and traditional sport sambo is the full range of techniques which are allowed and the fact that we have experience divisions for beginners with more limited rules. We are trying to make sambo more intriguing to an American audience. In the US, there are so many grappling venues like NAGA, Grappler’s Quest, Jujitsu, Judo, and MMA events, that sambo must compete with. Sport sambo rules are often not interesting to people who train for other types of events which allow a wider variety of technique. For example, in sport sambo chokes, neck cranks, pressure on the face for control, slamming, closed guard, and twisting locks are not allowed. In advanced division freestyle sambo they are. We also got rid of the hold down rule so the match would progress faster, would be more practical, and more exciting to watch. In sport sambo one can win with a “total victory” if a perfect throw is executed. We got rid of this rule as well. If an athlete is thrown and can still fight, why end the match? The idea is to fight until you can’t fight - just as in life. We kept sport sambo’s focus on throwing and limited ground time. We also kept the uniform requirements. Freestyle sambo is a great middle ground between sport and combat sambo competition. Our first tournament was very successful with competitors from many different arts including judo and jujitsu as well as sambo - of course.


Yes, we do have plans to release more DVDs. I am not sure yet what the next topic will be. Maybe knife work, principle of throwing, or training drills. I chose ankle and leg locks as the subject for the first one because it is what people generally ask about most when they ask about sambo techniques. I actually think that the most beautiful aspect of combat sambo is it’s philosophy of movement but, this is hard to put into an instructional format. It is important with instructional DVDs to not overwhelm the student viewer. Many instructionals show lots of techniques once or twice but, never really teach how to do them properly. I decided to go the opposite route…show a few techniques and really teach the subtleties and variations within them. With this DVD we also put a short documentary on sambo’s history.


I loved my stay in Serbia & Montenegro and Belgrade in particular. I spent half the time on the coast at Sveti Stefan where I was speaking at a scientific conference. What a beautiful place! The other half of the time I stayed in Belgrade where I was doing a combat sambo seminar. I must say that of all the places I have traveled in the world, I was never shown as much hospitality as I was in Belgrade by the instructors and students of Contemporary Martial Arts and Club Wolves. Everyone was great to train and hang out with. I wish more Americans could experience what I have. As you know Serbia has a less than positive reputation in the US. People need to leave politics behind and realize that most people are good people. Belgrade is such a wonderful city! I can’t wait to come back again. I will be back in June for another seminar.


I started training and competing in San Shou after I left Tae Kwon Do. At that time I had been entering TKD events and NASKA sport karate events - where I was nationally rated. I really was getting frustrated with the NASKA and TKD rules and limitations. I found I was developing very bad habits - like pulling my punches/kicks and dropping my hands. When I started san shou training it was not very popular or known in the US. It was an exciting time to be training in that art. We would spar at the world famous Gleason’s gym in Brooklyn. What a great time it was! All the boxers and wrestlers there would be so excited! They had never seen a sport where people could kickbox and throw the way we did. There was always a small crowd watching when we sparred. I was equally excited to watch the boxers - they were so fast with their hands! Roy Jones Jr. was even there once! Like I said before, our fight team did not only compete in San Shou. This was in part because there was not enough san shou competitions to fight in. It was also due to our interest in fighting under any set of rules. So, we did kung-fu tournaments, submission grappling tournaments, MMA tournaments, and san shou tournaments - whatever we could. Some of the guys also entered golden gloves boxing. San Shou these days is much more popular and there is much more opportunity for fighters. Today, I think san shou fighters from the US are at a higher caliber than we were back then in the early and mid 1990’s. I guess my san shou highlight was the 1997 United World Championships. After four three-round full contact matches, I was exhausted with a broken shin - and a finalist finish. I gained the reputation at that event as the only guy who was able to throw a fighter from the Brazilian team. I recall after my first fight the Brazilians were very interested in me. The coach came over to congratulate me on my win but, really to scope me out for his fighter. The final fight for the Bronze was against a guy from Cung Le’s team. We fought to a split decision. It was real close. I recall talking to him after the match while we were waiting for the judges’ decision. We really had no idea who would win. It was a close fight but, I lost to a split decision. The crowd actually booed when they declared him the winner. That made me feel great but, I felt bad for him because he fought a very good fight. Part of the reason I lost was because the Chinese judges did not like American style throws such as double legs or suplexes. They preferred traditional Chinese shuai jiao takedowns like sweeps and hip throws. The head judge actually reversed the ring judges point award for a suplex I did in that fight. This is why the audience was angry when I lost. In the end though, it is not about medals. It was a great fight win or lose.


ust to keep training hard and don’t train in anything that seems impractical to you in any way. Martial arts training, regardless of style, is for you own self-development and protection. If the style you are studying seems like it is missing something, find what it is missing elsewhere. I know so many schools where cross-training is discouraged. This is wrong. It should be encouraged. You can’t grow and evolve in a bubble. Nevertheless, you should stick to one primary style and spice it up with other things along the way. In the end, training is a life long pursuit. Once you start, never stop. Enjoy the ride! I hope to see you all next time I am in Serbia.